That has to do with another distinction you make, between what you would call a “thoughtful CEO” and a micromanager. Where are you now?
You micromanage specific important things. Being a great leader is about choosing those battles, not fighting them all. Make sure it is mission oriented.
In the chapter on quitting, you advocate leaving when things are not going well. You quit Apple three times.
The third time is a real person.
But you’ve quit twice before, withdrawing your resignation when Jobs addressed your concerns. Aren’t you putting on some sort of tactical drama at work to get what you want?
If you’ve tried everything and you really care about what you do, then quitting is the only thing to do. You have to go, “I am not going to sit here and do what I feel is wrong. Am I going to go in and resent every day about this? What’s bad for my health is bad for the team. I’m going.”
After leaving Apple, you started Nest. You built a great company and sold it for $3 billion. Is it “I will just friend” move?
I want to show my self. This is one thing where I thought, “I love my story. I like my idea. Nobody does it. I think it needs to exist.” One thing I learned was to have a co-founder with me, and it was great to do that with Matt Rogers.
You write about the importance of storytelling. That’s interesting for a management book.
Not many people properly understand storytelling. An elevator pitch is not a story. It is just an introduction. Stories about the customer journey.
Lots of companies and even VC firms are hiring journalists to tell their stories. Is what they produce trustworthy?
No, because it’s just marketing to write a story after the fact. It’s like putting perfume on a pig. It doesn’t fundamentally change the way products are built and the way decisions are made.
A few years ago, you have been quoted about the negative impact of digital devices and ask ourselves, “What have we done?” Still wondering to what extent the devices you’ve helped build dominate our attention?
It’s correct. It’s better than before, with things like Screen Time. But we are only 50% of the way to solving the problem. And that’s the big 50%.
What do you do in your own routine?
I turn off notifications for everything. In social settings, I make sure that my phone is not left on the table or in my pocket.
When people build things, shouldn’t they design to anticipate such problems? Or focus on perfecting the product and dealing with the consequences later?
You have to deal with it in advance. I avoid investing in things that are socially mobile. But, hypothetically, if I did, I would say, we’d have screen time limits, we’d have parental controls. Build it from scratch. It’s really a marketing piece to say you’ve addressed these needs from the start.
